tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post8284110200836658441..comments2024-03-10T15:13:47.148-07:00Comments on Research-China.Org: Do Orphanages Really Want to Find Birth Parents?Research-China.Orghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-27974818544503858462009-08-20T14:25:57.018-07:002009-08-20T14:25:57.018-07:00I am new to this blog. I really appreciate all th...I am new to this blog. I really appreciate all the information Brian has put out there. Lots to digest, discuss and debate.<br /><br />All the discussion of corruption in the China IA program is eye-opening and extremely disturbing. We adopted our wonderful daughter in September 2005. At that time, we truly believed that China was the best adoption option for us, as it was the least corrupt (compared to say, Russia), and so many young children needing homes. We did not feel prepared to adopt a SN child (from China or the US), so we were indeed wanting a healthy child.<br /><br />Not long thereafter, the news of Hunan came out. I recall just being sick to my stomach for a few days, then I pushed it aside, focused on raising our daughter and being thankful that she did not come from the Hunan provence ... but still, I know that the possibility exists that she was not truly abaonded by parents who could not take care of her.<br /><br />We received the finding ad from our adoption facilitator in China; I'm not sure how long she had been doing that, but it was clear she did this as part of her job, serving western families who cam to adopt. She was very honest with us when we asked about the process the local authorities used to search for the birth parents of babies brought to the orphanage. She said they publish the ad, but they don't really look - they've got too much else to do (her words). We just assumed there were too many abandoned babies for the authorities to feel like they could effectively search for birth parents.<br /><br />We are not planning another adoption, but knowing what I know now, if we were, I would consider only SN from China, or not China at all.<br /><br />I look forward ot reading more articles essays and following debates.<br /><br />Brian, one question: what is your take on Half the Sky, as far as it being an effective organization to which to donate resources. Our daughter was from the Beihai City SWI (Guangxi AR); Half the Sky operates there (and we received a fair amount of documentation from them as to our daughter's last few months in the orphanage).<br /><br />Thanks for your work, your persistence and your time.EKFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-85990561714108452362008-09-09T21:05:00.000-07:002008-09-09T21:05:00.000-07:00I don't know what to think of this article and all...I don't know what to think of this article and all the comments from so many people who obviously think they are experts on this subject. I have three adopted children from China...one NSN and two SN...and I wouldn't give them back for anything! They are ours now! When we adopted our first child from China almost five years ago, we thought it was a legitimate program and never gave thought to the fact that something could be underhanded about it at all. I am glad my children have life and were not aborted or killed. One of my SN's children was abandoned and attacked all over by ants, leaving terrible scars, so I know it was not fabricated that she was abandoned. I am glad that corruption can be exposed but for any of you who are condemning adoptive parents, get off your high horses and tell me you are perfect!! My husband I know this was what we were supposed to do and we are not feeling guilty at all for giving our children a loving and stable home!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-68319621566969569162008-07-28T14:09:00.000-07:002008-07-28T14:09:00.000-07:00Orphanages don't want birth-parents found - someti...Orphanages don't want birth-parents found - sometimes yes it is because they want the funds from the adoption of the child and sometimes it is becuase they know the birth-parents and no one wants them to be thrown in prison .... Some orphanages are better than others, but they are all institutions and pretty lousy places to leave a child. Even given that we are taking about an under-developed nation with extremely limited resources, conditions could be, should be, better .... it breaks your heart to visit and have to leave children there ...<BR/><BR/>SWI staff have told me that the 'found locations' are fabricated ... and when returning parents tell me "we went to her finding spot and people remembered her!", I just shake my head at the naivete (?) or blindness (?) .... people will tell you what they think you want to hear: they see you with a child obviously adopted from China; they know you want to "know" something; they respond "yes yes, I know the lady who was here that day!" but if you press, more often than not, 'she moved far away right after that' .... it is a fairy tale - not out of malice but because they want to make you feel better ....<BR/><BR/>Corruption is far too great -- and combined with thousands of years of cultural bias "formalizing" informal adoptions, children as property and women as chattel - -well, it is an uphill battle ......<BR/><BR/>One that I think will utlimately be a significant contributor to China's failure to become the world power so much desired by their government.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-55294026362391462252008-07-12T05:32:00.000-07:002008-07-12T05:32:00.000-07:00One more thing...I had a very close relationship w...One more thing...I had a very close relationship with many of the ayis (nannies) and they told me that the child I was trying to help get adopted, Xiao Gou, was only there a few weeks when her father came to the orphanage to try to reclaim her. (he had left her at the hospital after a tragic accident that left her an amputee and him unable to pay the bills) and that the directors refused to let him see her and told him to go or be arrested. I begged the director to find him again and that I would pay the hospital fees in order to reunite Xiao Gou to her parents that she was missing so much (she was 4!) but was told that it was impossible. Through the next year, the nannies told me that the parents were always close by the orphanage and "watching" their daughter from afar.Kay Bratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00619283952491425397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-64130956071093121112008-07-12T05:25:00.000-07:002008-07-12T05:25:00.000-07:00In my 4 years working inside a chinese orphanage, ...In my 4 years working inside a chinese orphanage, I saw many times the children that were not considered for adoption because they weren't pretty enough, or because they had a small disability. With one specific child, we tried for two years to get her on the list for adoption---but there have been excuses, excuses, excuses as to why she "cannot" be adopted.Kay Bratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00619283952491425397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-20074718485215702302008-07-10T11:24:00.000-07:002008-07-10T11:24:00.000-07:00A very good question! I have heard families asser...A very good question! I have heard families assert that birth notes were made up and given them (all of the notes looked the same in an adoption group), but have never seen that first-hand myself. I have had someone tell me that the birth family wrote a note right before trafficking the child over to the orphanage, but again I have not seen anything first hand.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-16846795827811144162008-07-10T11:09:00.000-07:002008-07-10T11:09:00.000-07:00I understand that this is on open question but If ...I understand that this is on open question but If a child is reportedly abandoned on or about it's birthdate with a "red note", can we assume this is the real story or is this another "document" to support what they think you want to hear ladybug myths.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-23589483263596097102008-07-03T10:58:00.000-07:002008-07-03T10:58:00.000-07:00I imagine the article you are referring to is this...I imagine the article you are referring to is this one:<BR/><BR/>http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/2001/0108/babies.smuggle.html<BR/><BR/>Additionally, a similar story was reported in July 2004, but not available online:<BR/><BR/>Yunnan Fazhibao, July 28, 2004.<BR/><BR/>I am working on an article on reasons families sell their children in China, and will go into more depth on this angle of it in that article.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-8957653824882050212008-07-03T08:32:00.000-07:002008-07-03T08:32:00.000-07:00"There are many, many stories of entire villages o..."There are many, many stories of entire villages of women getting pregnant to sell to traffickers, so this is no myth. It fact, in Yunnan Province it is practically an industry."<BR/><BR/>This story was first published six years old -do you have confirmation that it is still ongoing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-35156460216292140312008-07-02T17:59:00.000-07:002008-07-02T17:59:00.000-07:00Chin up Brian - you have been smeared on Jane's fo...Chin up Brian - you have been smeared on Jane's forum more than onceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-49367029944831483032008-07-02T17:24:00.000-07:002008-07-02T17:24:00.000-07:00How could anyone say that "these kids are not want...How could anyone say that "these kids are not wanted in the first place" That is such a stereotype! <BR/>Brian, I know you once did a topic about mothers not mourning their kids or something of that nature. I have to say that when we begin to talk about inner emotions based on external events which led our kids down the path they are on, that is when the slope gets waaaay too slippery!<BR/><BR/>As for the Jane "smear", I guess some may see it as such and others may see it as bringing together all of these key people who claim to have insight into the international adoption program from China.<BR/>So what if her comments are brought up here? She seems to be a pretty open figure when it comes to info about China.<BR/><BR/>I wish people would combine their info and finally tell the rest of us exactly what the heck is really happening!!!<BR/>This whole issue is getting to be too much.<BR/>(Sigh)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-28310916416099162792008-07-02T17:20:00.000-07:002008-07-02T17:20:00.000-07:00I am sorry that anyone views my comments as a smea...I am sorry that anyone views my comments as a smear, that was definitely not my intent. My point was to show that she professes to have knowledge of corruption in China, and has been a silent voice (as far as I know, but I am not able to keep up on everything). If I am mistaken, I apologize. But I don't think being critical of someone is a smear. <BR/><BR/>I am not able to control who does investigations or when. Obviously China is a very busy news country right now with the earthquake, Olympics, Tibet, etc. As much as I think this subject is important, the rest of the world doesn't view it with the same priority. I am hopeful that things will resolve themselves this year, however.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure some feel that raising the ire of adoptive parents is a good business strategy, but so far it has proven not to be. A smarter business decision on my part would be to not bring up anything negative about the China program, promote the myth, and sell finding ads. That is the strategy employed by most agencies, and other "adoption" businesses. I don't want to operate that way. <BR/><BR/>Ultimately, however, most families do seek to obtain information on their children, and our finding ads, DVDs, foster family and orphanage contacts makes us the only organization in a position to provide that information. Consequently, business is doing fine.<BR/><BR/>There are many, many stories of entire villages of women getting pregnant to sell to traffickers, so this is no myth. It fact, in Yunnan Province it is practically an industry.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-88252183925406643582008-07-02T16:55:00.000-07:002008-07-02T16:55:00.000-07:00Brian,I doubt that many women would get pregnant t...Brian,<BR/>I doubt that many women would get pregnant to make money in China. Dont they risk being punished for having too many children? I think that might be one of those "what if " myths. Could happen but rarely does. I agree that it is a win-win-win situation. Less dead children left in a field, more kids for adoption and the orphanage gets more funds. Sorry, I just dont see this as a problem. These kids are not wanted in the first place. If there were women having kids to get some money would not the SWI's be full of healthy babies?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-64240558633191769182008-07-02T16:49:00.000-07:002008-07-02T16:49:00.000-07:00Count me as another who thinks your statements abo...Count me as another who thinks your statements about J. Liedtke are character smears. I, too, have never used her services (whereas I have used yours, in the past), although my family may do so in the future. <BR/><BR/>Just out of curiosity, how do you know that JL "has not made any attempt to bring it [trafficking] forward"?<BR/><BR/>A recent commenter in another "anonymous" forum has, correctly I think, made the point that you have been writing about the trafficking issue off-and-on for the past few years and promising upcoming investigations without ever giving any details about the who-what-when of said investigations. The more skeptical among your readers may be starting to think that your motives are driven by YOUR business interests. To wit, with the extreme slow down in China IA, your finding ad/orphanage pix business has to be way down (guessing here). So has your business in investigating for families whether individual children may have been trafficked grown to fill the gap? Just wondering.<BR/><BR/>All this is not to say that I think China IA is without corruption, because I do not and corruption has been demonstrated. But your blog (a.k.a. marketing) writings are beginning to lose credibility in the face of your use of overgeneralization and now character smear.<BR/><BR/>I, for one, will be reluctant to use your services in the future although I certainly hope for your girls' sake that you are able to continue supporting them. <BR/><BR/>--CLDAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-64003846404017342132008-07-02T11:07:00.000-07:002008-07-02T11:07:00.000-07:00Perhaps a delicate line is what is warranted here ...Perhaps a delicate line is what is warranted here -<BR/><BR/>To quote Bill Clinton's handlers - if you walk through a trailer park dragging a 100 dollar bill - you never know who will come out of the wood work or what they will say for that 100 dollars.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-91332474781379805792008-07-02T09:52:00.000-07:002008-07-02T09:52:00.000-07:00Sorry you feel that way. Jane is an important sou...Sorry you feel that way. Jane is an important source of information for families. I am simply pointing out that she sometimes isn't consistent in her assertions, or logical in her statements. I totally respect what Janes does, but when it comes to this issue I feel she is trying to walk too delicate of a line. <BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-8515697502991304512008-07-02T09:47:00.000-07:002008-07-02T09:47:00.000-07:00I have to agree with the previous poster - smearin...I have to agree with the previous poster - smearing Jane L. and then ripping her statements from her site and posting them onto your blog in order to defend yourself - is... unethical.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-70267786991331183512008-07-02T07:29:00.000-07:002008-07-02T07:29:00.000-07:0070,000 + children have been internationally adopte...70,000 + children have been internationally adopted from China since the program opened. The only " win" for them in this discussion is a non-agenda driven detailed review with solutions <BR/><BR/>To take a position based on a Chinese woman having child for the purposes of adoption, you only have to look in any Adoption Magazine for a fee-based surrogate to further cloud up the issues.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-71340742632965242672008-07-01T21:16:00.000-07:002008-07-01T21:16:00.000-07:00mrkmommy: You ask the golden questions. I can on...mrkmommy: You ask the golden questions. I can only recount one experience I know of. In Guangdong Province in 2004 the CCAA ordered the examination of many of the orphanages. One orphanage failed in its inspection, and there were lots of questions. The director, however, was promoted outside the orphanage rather than fired. <BR/><BR/>In the Hunan story we saw a lot of activity but little results. Of the six directors directly involved in the trafficking, only one served any jail time, and that was three months. <BR/><BR/>So, I think it is safe to say that adoption "irregularities" are not treated very severely.<BR/><BR/>Now, there is a cultural disconnect in all this. Most Chinese familiar with this problem, including those on trial in Hunan, feel it is a win-win-win situation. It is felt that the kids sold to orphanages are not wanted anyway, and the orphanage is doing their job to keep them out of the hands of traffickers or being left in a field. The program saves kids, brings orphanages money, and international families children.<BR/><BR/>If it were that simple, I might agree. But the fact is, we don't know, and cannot know, what would have happened to the children. We cannot know how many women in China will get pregnant simply to sell the child for the money. We might save some, but actually produce more orphans at the same time.<BR/><BR/>So, the answer is yes, there is a difference in perception on this issue. <BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-6557284118777740092008-07-01T20:50:00.000-07:002008-07-01T20:50:00.000-07:00I am not trying to smear her character, simply poi...I am not trying to smear her character, simply pointing out that she seems to be familiar with trafficking issues, and has not made any attempt to bring it forward. For example, in a recent posting she asserted the following:<BR/><BR/>"They [the CCAA] just process adoptions based on files sent to them by the orphanages. They aren't responsible for the orphanages. It's not their job! Are they<BR/>aware of it [orphanage trafficking] - who ISN"T aware of it???? The entire globe is aware of it. If<BR/>adoptive parents have kept their heads in the sand for years it's their problem not CCAA's problem."<BR/><BR/>To assert that the adoptive parents are somehow guilty here is absurd. Adoption agencies, the CCAA, and many other "resources" have all been saying that Hunan, for example, was an isolated event, and that the system was clean. Monitoring the orphanages IS the job of the CCAA. To claim they are just paper-pushers is ridiculous. No one in the adoption community, and especially the world, believes that trafficking into the orphanages is common-place. Jane is trying to make this sound like old news, but it isn't.<BR/><BR/>Later in the same post she makes this statement:<BR/><BR/>"Adoptive parents just don't do their homework, in general, and then want to blast [the] CCAA. I'm not always in favor of CCAA's rules/regulations and procedures but this is one issue that's not their fault. Greedy local officials, greedy orphanage directors drive this demand for kids because we all want to adopt<BR/>them and they want the CASH in their pockets. Does [the] CCAA know? Sure. Are they to blame? Nope. They may be anscillary [sic] to the problem but they didn't create the problem nor do they perpetuate it."<BR/><BR/>Please!! If I hire a bunch of people to go out and find stereos to sell to others, and I ask no questions or express no suspicions when one individual brings in hundreds of brand-new stereos, I guess I can use Jane's defense: I didn't create the problem, I was just ancillary to it! <BR/><BR/>I will, however, still go to jail.<BR/><BR/>So, either she doesn't have a good grasp of what is happening in China (possible, since she does seem very busy) or she is doing her best to defend the CCAA from being part of the problem. When one looks at history, it is clear that the CCAA is very much aware (as Jane admits) but is also very responsible.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-23045246644611978862008-07-01T20:39:00.000-07:002008-07-01T20:39:00.000-07:00I don't like the idea that children are trafficked...I don't like the idea that children are trafficked in order to "fill the order" of IA parents; all children deserve to be treated as more than a commodity. So my question is not to justify the existence of trafficking.<BR/><BR/>Certain things that you have said and I have read elsewhere makes me wonder if China views the buying, selling and/or transfering children in the same way as western countries do. You say that the orphanage directors involved with the Hunan trafficking scandal were not truly punished. Is this because CCAA WANTS IA to continue? Or is it because China itself doesn't see it as a big deal and only dealt with it because of international pressure and outrage?mrkmommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09180567143667720074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-62328787322343469912008-07-01T20:31:00.000-07:002008-07-01T20:31:00.000-07:00That was a very damning thing to say about liedtke...That was a very damning thing to say about liedtke. I certainly hope you have real information on her and her motives, for if you don’t really know and are just guessing, what a vile way to smear her character. Saying something like that without proof would really make me questions your character and credibility. I was able to find a reference made by her in November of 2005 of child trafficking – stating she thought it rather naïve to believe it wasn’t occurring – also stating that family planning officials have themselves confiscated over quota children from parents and brought those children to the orphanage. (I have not used her services, nor do I have any plans to – but the attack on her character really caught my eye).<BR/>trmrAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-81267566034158907162008-07-01T16:10:00.000-07:002008-07-01T16:10:00.000-07:00Nothing was done, and the same players remain at t...Nothing was done, and the same players remain at the orphanage today.<BR/><BR/>The sad reality is that nothing is done when it is discovered that directors buy babies. Nothing has happened in Changde, nothing has happened in Fuzhou. Only if it becomes a wide-spread international story like Hunan are remedial steps taken, but even those are inconsequential. Few of the directors in Hunan were even sentenced to jail, and only one served any time at all (3 months).<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-20132042985907670992008-07-01T15:41:00.000-07:002008-07-01T15:41:00.000-07:00Do you know if any of the staff at Dianjiang were ...Do you know if any of the staff at Dianjiang were arrested? <BR/>Did the director get fired for allowing this method of obtaining children?<BR/><BR/>Obviously if the orphanage is offering the rewards and this child was proven to be trafficked then other orphanages who offer rewards are not removed from this type of sick twisted scenario.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-35302890654963897182008-07-01T09:57:00.000-07:002008-07-01T09:57:00.000-07:00I sure don't want to lose you as a reader, but I s...I sure don't want to lose you as a reader, but I seek only to educate families as the the current reality in China. That reality is that there is still a one-child policy that gives a preference to males. Families that don't want to keep a child are no longer facing hiding a child or abandoning her, but rather a spectrum of financial alternatives. Most continue to place the child with family/friends who they believe will be interested in keeping her, but a growing percentage also take advantage of the black markets that are prevalent. Many orphanages have recognized that if they don't compete effectively with these markets, that they will no longer receive healthy children to adopt to support their SN children, build bigger facilities or pay salaries. Thus, many are actively paying for children.<BR/><BR/>Some orphanages take advantage of individual circumstances to obtain children, such as working with local Family Planning officials to do "confiscations" of unregistered children. This is little more than state-sanctioned kidnapping. Others work with doctors to obtain children by taking them from families who can't afford to pay medical bills. These activities must be exposed and stopped.<BR/><BR/>The good news is that there are orphanages that don't participate in these nefarious activities. <BR/><BR/>Not every child is trafficked, of course, but the evidence suggests that a growing percentage are. None of that means that there are birth parents seeking a child. I do believe that such activities are fairly rare, but do happen.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.com