tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post6891007412046194211..comments2024-03-10T15:13:47.148-07:00Comments on Research-China.Org: Gone, Baby, GoneResearch-China.Orghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comBlogger85125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-86683633234983826462008-07-02T13:28:00.000-07:002008-07-02T13:28:00.000-07:00I would agree if the laws were administered and pr...I would agree if the laws were administered and prosecuted consistently. However, there are millions of unregistered children whose parents are never prosecuted or fined. Additionally, often when a fine is imposed, it is easily mitigated with a "gift" to some official. In other words, the entire one-child registration program is capricious. For that reason, I don't find too much fault with birth paretns who don't register. They have millions of examples.<BR/><BR/>The problem is when a authority seeks to make a name for himself with some party officials and make examples out of the residents in his jurisdiction. Although legal, the actions in these cases is immoral. <BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-32023056731262099042008-07-02T13:24:00.000-07:002008-07-02T13:24:00.000-07:00I'm just now reading this and want your response t...I'm just now reading this and want your response to a question.<BR/><BR/>You say (and I know I'm summarizing) that the law is the law and it should be obeyed. We can't go around kidnapping children from their birth families, even if the birth parent is a drug addict as in the movie or beating the child to death...etc, etc. We should follow the proper procedures in those cases, no matter what. No gray area for you I guess, only black and white. <BR/><BR/>So in the case of the unregistered child taken by force and adopted in the US, are the birth parents not criminals also? Isn't it the law that they register their marriage and register their child? But they did not. And the consequence was that they lost their child.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying I agree with that law or agree with the removal by force. My point is that you contradict yourself in saying we all need to follow the law, no matter our motivations for breaking the law. What should the consequence be for those who do not? What if they can't pay the fine?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-38031651330851584072008-04-21T12:54:00.000-07:002008-04-21T12:54:00.000-07:00Anonymous said "...Most parents would want a bette...Anonymous said "...Most parents would want a better life for their child. I once read an account of a train leaving a station bound for the Nazi death camps. As it pulled away a woman tossed her baby from the train into a crowd of people standing nearby. The child was caught by a woman who took it home and raised it as her own. The overwhelming hope she had for her child and for her future was bigger to her mother than her fear of losing the child."<BR/><BR/>Excuse me-- are you equating life in a poor country with being on a train to the death camps?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-77010067717290373562008-04-17T12:23:00.000-07:002008-04-17T12:23:00.000-07:00Well, RQ says many things that appear to come from...Well, RQ says many things that appear to come from thin air. I'm sure she has never spoken to a single finder, so she has no idea what she is talking about. I have spoken with hundreds of finders, and I can tell you that no examination is done. A short report is filled out, a signature or finger print is taken, and that is it.<BR/><BR/>Really, where does she get that stuff?<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-9193294113349424972008-04-17T12:19:00.000-07:002008-04-17T12:19:00.000-07:00RQ is saying that a finder must be examined by the...RQ is saying that a finder must be examined by the police if they report a child to make sure they are not the birth parents. Have you ever heard of this?<BR/><BR/>ADAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-5283890245584564582008-04-15T17:05:00.000-07:002008-04-15T17:05:00.000-07:00Once when I saw a small baby, maybe 8-9 months lef...Once when I saw a small baby, maybe 8-9 months left on the sidewalk. He was filthy and just sitting on the ground. I watched him for a few minutes and another child finally came and got him and left. I wondered what sort of future he had. I wondered how many parents in China work all year and hardly see their kids in the hopes they can get an education and better life than they had. I wonder how many that sell their children or abandon them do so hoping for a better life for them. I wonder how many impoverished parents would let me adopt their child and take them to the West for an education and better life. I bet a lot of them would let me take that child. Most parents would want a better life for their child. I once read an account of a train leaving a station bound for the Nazi death camps. As it pulled away a woman tossed her baby from the train into a crowd of people standing nearby. The child was caught by a woman who took it home and raised it as her own. The overwhelming hope she had for her child and for her future was bigger to her mother than her fear of losing the child.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-44003296942508270032008-04-15T10:32:00.000-07:002008-04-15T10:32:00.000-07:00I don't see much evidence of baby-buying occurring...I don't see much evidence of baby-buying occurring for children that age, and since their adoptability is greatly reduced, I would assume (barring any direct evidence) that they came to teh orphanage ethically. Of course, a child that old will have memories of her own.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-31521087757339802742008-04-15T09:46:00.000-07:002008-04-15T09:46:00.000-07:00Brian, I'm curious. It has been my understanding t...Brian, I'm curious. <BR/>It has been my understanding that when Chinese nationals adopt domestically, they are really only interested in very young babies so that the fact of the adoption is not so obvious.<BR/><BR/>That said, do you think that the older children [as in 4-5-6-7-8, etc] in the various orphanages are in the same position as you seem to view the infants---potentially bought or seized by the planning officials? <BR/><BR/>Or is their presence in an orphanage "legitimate"---ie really abandoned by birth families, etc? And do you view there as being any difference if the child in question is a boy or a girl?<BR/><BR/>In other words, if an adoptive family only seeks to adopt a child with SN or an older child who is simply, not an infant, or a older boy, can they feel that their child was appropriately available for adoption?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-55026258356551928012008-04-15T06:04:00.000-07:002008-04-15T06:04:00.000-07:00Brian - why are you doing this? I'm terrified you...Brian - why are you doing this? I'm terrified your crusade will shut down even the SN pilot program we are in the process of participating in. China hates to lose face, and with the Olympics that is exactly what you are trying to make them do. How do you KNOW this to be the case? Why aren't you talking to JCIS about it? You are being cruel to the children in need of families. What will you say to your daughters from China when they realize China shut down adoptions because of YOU and all those SN kids didn't get adopted? I hope you can live with yourself - I know I couldn't. I wish I'd never given you money for your "research" - believe me, it won't happen again!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-50793666259823284492008-04-14T18:43:00.000-07:002008-04-14T18:43:00.000-07:00Anonymous said "Does the fact that we have our chi...Anonymous said "Does the fact that we have our children give us more right to worry? I don't know. But it is incredibly difficult to look at the faces of our children and wonder..."<BR/><BR/><BR/>I agree 100%! It must be hard for those waiting to adopt, however they are not in love yet with a child. They are in love with a notion.<BR/>My peace comes from the idea that if we work together now for truth and change, this must be better for our children.<BR/>I often wonder what she would want, I listen to adult adoptees and then I make a decision on how she would want me to handle things.<BR/>We have to recognize that one day it will be our kids on the computer comparing stories, details, information and discussing how we handled issues of corruption.<BR/>I want to reveal all that we can now so that it is us that feels the impact and we can then pass it on to our kids in a much more gentle way.<BR/>They deserve the truth and it will feel much better coming from us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-21498792737577676962008-04-14T17:28:00.000-07:002008-04-14T17:28:00.000-07:00Brian,Keep doing what you are doing: Shining light...Brian,<BR/>Keep doing what you are doing: Shining light in dark places. You are right. You are 100% right. Right now China AP's don't want to hear anything bad, they are defensive and scared. Rightly so, it's scary stuff. No one wants to think they've done something wrong or their adoption was unethical. <BR/><BR/>Knowing the sometimes hard truth of IA, and then taking action to change it, is the only way to keep a program open in the long haul. History proves that. You are doing the right thing and you are a solitary voice sharing very unpopular news which you are bound to get attacked for. Please don't let the anger stop you. <BR/><BR/>China is ridden with fraud, and many in the field know it. I only hope change can happen by people opening their eyes to mend it before China IA comes to a grinding halt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-7966716381344400792008-04-14T16:16:00.000-07:002008-04-14T16:16:00.000-07:00There seems to be a lot of focus on waiting parent...There seems to be a lot of focus on waiting parents. Those of us with children already home are concerned as well, though it seems to be hushed up a bit more by BTDT parents. Maybe they (we) all don't want to know. We fear someone's going to take our child or our child will be "one of the ones" and will hate us and place blame on us. <BR/><BR/>I'd hate to be a waiting parent facing this but put yourselves in our place...we have our children. They are a part of our families and our lives. My first daughter was adopted in 2001 - supposedly before all of this happened and from a very small SWI that has never had many referrals and still does not. The other child was adopted in 2005. Is one trafficked and one not? Will we ever know? <BR/><BR/>Does the fact that we have our children give us more right to worry? I don't know. But it is incredibly difficult to look at the faces of our children and wonder...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-52252123295822683732008-04-14T10:15:00.000-07:002008-04-14T10:15:00.000-07:00I appreciate your blogs and look foreward to readi...I appreciate your blogs and look foreward to reading them. <BR/><BR/>I sence that the jist of your message is that there is no longer a need for IA. Particularly for the placement of NSN children. <BR/><BR/>The declining number of childen placed for IA already foretells the demise of this program.<BR/>But I belive that at the end of the day the orphanges benifit from IA on many levels particularly for those "unadoptable". I don't belive that you can have a vibale program for one (SN) without the other (NSN) but time will tell. <BR/><BR/>My only hope is that any expose' is not done with the intention of the writer getting a pulizer - No one involved ( our daughters) wins unless the coverage is balanced and not written for a 1 page NYT Sunday piece.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-56255895322370251482008-04-14T09:13:00.000-07:002008-04-14T09:13:00.000-07:00My emphasis has been on the purchase of children b...My emphasis has been on the purchase of children by orphanages solely to provide international adoption families with children in order to obtain adoption donations. Many families inside China would adopt the childrenin theorphanages if the orphanages did not charge what to many families is 3 to 5 years annual salaries. In other words, because they can adopt children internationally, many (most) orpanages deny access of these children to domestic families. These families are forced, then, to look at the black market to obtain children. Therefore, any discussion of baby trafficking inside China by definition involves the IA program, because the adoption of healthy children outside China removes options for adopting children inside China.<BR/><BR/>Would things change dramatically if the IA program stopped? Of course not. The trafficking problem is much larger than the IA program. But the IA program is part of the larger (much larger) puzzle.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-52877119316445896102008-04-14T08:48:00.000-07:002008-04-14T08:48:00.000-07:00You said "The taking of the children by force, or ...You said "The taking of the children by force, or the levying of crippling of fines, however, do the same thing as you point out: Often force a family to give up a child they would not otherwise. In that respect you make an excellent point."<BR/><BR/>This point is exactly why I have a hard time believing why you would think that "exposing" the corruption within China would force them to change. This was going on LONG before money or IA was involved. Simply because most of the same forces and situations exist that will keep it going on regardless of money or IA - namely China's desire to limit their population growth.<BR/><BR/>Also, you argue for domestic adoption; however, you admit that familial adoption is preferable within the culture and baby buying exists within the country that are completely separate from orphanages and therefore much less expensive. How does or what right does Western opinions and belief systems change those dynamics?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-35111704141688737712008-04-14T07:16:00.000-07:002008-04-14T07:16:00.000-07:00"...Thus, there are very few individuals who speak..."...Thus, there are very few individuals who speak up for change."<BR/><BR/>i think you're right that many of the apparent realities are justified away. considering what many AP's have been through even before the A process, i frankly don't blame them. AP's are struggling to make the best out of what has been sold as the world's most succesful, secure and reliable IA system in the world. AP's work through agencies, and need to have confidence and trust in them. i hold them responsible for communicating w/, monitoring of, and working the chinese system. call me selfish, but i feel i speak for many in saying i'm not out to save the world- i want to secure my family and move along in my life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-50215541901977913572008-04-14T06:20:00.000-07:002008-04-14T06:20:00.000-07:00Kate:You bring up a very interesting idea, and one...Kate:<BR/><BR/>You bring up a very interesting idea, and one that I cannot easily discount. In this particular case, however, some subtleties do exist.<BR/><BR/>First, the child involved in the Dutch broadcast was not an over-quota child, but an unregistered child. Her parents we married in the village, but not officially registered. These issues revolve around the fact that official registration (or a marriage or child) costs money, and many rural families choose to not pay. Thus, they throw a marriage party (which for them makes it official in the eyes of their friends and community) but avoid paying the government (who few really respect). This was the case with Yang Li Bing. They had married by tradition, but not in the governments eyes.<BR/><BR/>Thus, their daughter was not an over-quota child, but simply an unregistered one. There are millions of children in the same position.<BR/><BR/>The taking of the children by force, or the levying of crippling of fines, however, do the same thing as you point out: Often force a family to give up a child they would not otherwise. In that respect you make an excellent point.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-39307381258185693762008-04-13T23:02:00.000-07:002008-04-13T23:02:00.000-07:00How is being "stolen" by the family planning agenc...How is being "stolen" by the family planning agency really any different than a couple being forced to give up a child because they cannot financially withstand the consequences of keeping the child (fines, loss of job, etc)? <BR/><BR/>I just find it somewhat amazing when what was always talked about was this utterly romantic depiction of a faceless woman leaving her child "to be found" as some sort of detached, altruistic act... but now when there is cold hard cash involved (either in forcing the abandonment or paying FOR the abandonment) you and everyone else gets so up in arms. <BR/><BR/>The one-child policy, and using financial leverage to force family planning choices is just as evil as family planning agencies directly taking babies and giving them to the orphanages. Why is it that the former has always been so easily accepted but the latter is so morally repugnant??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-89843370420230516262008-04-13T21:08:00.000-07:002008-04-13T21:08:00.000-07:00The Dutch documentary focused on a girl confiscate...The Dutch documentary focused on a girl confiscated by the Family Planning office in Gaoping Village, Hunan, who was adopted to an American family in the Eastern U.S.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-1739798170626613032008-04-13T21:04:00.000-07:002008-04-13T21:04:00.000-07:00I was under the understanding that the Dutch docum...I was under the understanding that the Dutch documentary did not have anything to do with IA. Am I blind here too?<BR/><BR/>AM<BR/><BR/>This is a rough night for me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-57290782671434088912008-04-13T20:58:00.000-07:002008-04-13T20:58:00.000-07:00Andy:I wish to draw the parallels between adoptive...Andy:<BR/><BR/>I wish to draw the parallels between adoptive families in general, not specific to the China program (that is why I said the China community was beginning to confront them). At this point, individual families (like AM) must rely on the agencies, the CCAA, etc. However, when stories such as Hunan, the Dutch documentary, etc. are presented, many adoptive families seek to rationalize the motives of all involved, trying to find an excuse why we should accept it. "I don't care if the birth family got money," wrote one family, "since everybody else gets money." "Any birth mother that would sell her daughter shouldn't be a mother anyway," I've seen written about. All are legitimate points to consider (just as Elaine's crack habit), but in the end these offer no excuse.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-10929806763893431722008-04-13T20:50:00.000-07:002008-04-13T20:50:00.000-07:00AM:I understand that, but don't know what else I c...AM:<BR/><BR/>I understand that, but don't know what else I can do. We went back and forth how how to handle it, and in the end I decided that families should know that problems exist. That public acknowledgment has brought other families forward who have helped bring more information forward, and so on. I am confident the complete picture will be known.<BR/><BR/>If you would like to e-mail me privately, I can discuss your child's specifics.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-60829893265484212982008-04-13T20:47:00.000-07:002008-04-13T20:47:00.000-07:00Brian, I really enjoyed the film and found it very...Brian, I really enjoyed the film and found it very thought provoking.<BR/>However, I found your critique somewhat ironic. You analogize the film’s antagonists to adoptive parents, and conclude your review with the admonishment that “Whether it is the law of the town, or the International Law of the Hague Agreement, it is the law that all of us must respect.” Yet parents adopting from China clearly abide by the law by undergoing rigorous processes governed by China, their own respective countries and the International Law of the Hague Agreement.<BR/><BR/>Whereas, you, on the other hand, are much like the film’s antagonists, in that you seem to have become frustrated with the governing bodies (in this case the CCAA and the U.S. State Department) and have taken it upon yourself to operate outside this governing framework in an effort to advance a cause which you perceive as noble and just and in the best interest of children.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08762636570805475764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-40492693341724420172008-04-13T20:45:00.001-07:002008-04-13T20:45:00.001-07:00I agree with the fear comment. My hostility is fea...I agree with the fear comment. My hostility is fear that the daughter I brought home 3 months ago may have been taken or bought from her birth mother and how can I live with that????? I trusted the agency, I trusted the CCAA, and I trusted the finding ad that everything was above board and now to learn possibly otherwise shakes me to the core. You can't put out a small snip of fearful information and not help the people who read your blog!!!!<BR/><BR/>AMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-25313816611102731692008-04-13T20:45:00.000-07:002008-04-13T20:45:00.000-07:00I certify that the finding ads are legitimate find...I certify that the finding ads are legitimate finding ads, published by the orphanage. When we visit orphanages on research projects, we do more in-depth research into finders, etc.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.com