tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post4728691151552247229..comments2024-03-10T15:13:47.148-07:00Comments on Research-China.Org: Hunan in RetrospectResearch-China.Orghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-12898582071754059542017-02-16T11:39:31.742-08:002017-02-16T11:39:31.742-08:00It is hard to be certain, since so few birth paren...It is hard to be certain, since so few birth parents have been located. But we did locate a bp of a SN (ear deformity) where the "finder" lied to the birth family to get them to relinquish. This bp regretted what happened to their daughter (being adopted overseas), but it is impossible to know what they would have done differently. Research-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-50012786931520228132017-02-16T08:11:07.178-08:002017-02-16T08:11:07.178-08:00Bump.
Anything new to report on Hunan adoptions? ...Bump.<br /><br />Anything new to report on Hunan adoptions? I'm particularly interested in Changsha SWI 1 and Changsha SWI 2.<br /><br />Do you think that birth parents of SN kids (say, minor cleft, albinism) are in some cases more likely to relinquish their newborn if offered money or do you think that most of the parents that relinquish these (minor) SN children would be relinquishing/abandoning them anyway?<br /><br />Thank you!<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-20572328090371790582012-04-15T18:11:45.517-07:002012-04-15T18:11:45.517-07:00Wow, what an important Blog! I have 2 Hunan adopt...Wow, what an important Blog! I have 2 Hunan adopted children, right in the heart of the scandal... not sure if or when I will tell these girls they may not have been found where there adoption papers say, or that they were basically a monthly salary for someone. What a heartbreaking conversation I'll need to have someday, probably sooner rather than later, before a jerk at their school shows it to them to hurt them... However my questions are: Are you sure that the Hunan scandal was not statistically a relocation of children from non-paying orphanages to high-paying orphanages? Next, how was Ms. Liang originally being compensated for the 40 or so children she was raising in her house, before Duan started buying the children to send them to Hunan orphanages? Finally, do the orphanages in other providences, especially near Beijing give payments to "the finder" of the baby (exclude the older children for purposes of this question)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-78981750426710483042011-12-15T17:07:26.832-08:002011-12-15T17:07:26.832-08:00I have not seen any evidence of trafficking in SN ...I have not seen any evidence of trafficking in SN children before 2005. After the CCAA pushed orphanages for any kids in 2006, however, the story seems to have changed. Today, there is evidence that SN children are also being obtained through "less than ethical" methods. <br /><br />BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-12204407586317736012011-12-15T16:15:16.982-08:002011-12-15T16:15:16.982-08:00My daughter who is so such a beautiful child now a...My daughter who is so such a beautiful child now at the age of 11 - was adopted at the age of 2. <br />She was in Hengshan orphanage, Hunan province. She came home in 2002.<br />However, she was born cleft affected.<br />Special needs children were not victims of trafficking. Right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-52241804466657783342008-05-22T14:32:00.000-07:002008-05-22T14:32:00.000-07:00Just came across your blog today and am intrigued....Just came across your blog today and am intrigued. Thanks so much for writing about such an important issue. <BR/>(an adult adoptee in reunion)Samantha Franklinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18249283547377633349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-63113216680084375482008-05-16T01:25:00.000-07:002008-05-16T01:25:00.000-07:00"If abandoning a child in China is illegal and peo..."If abandoning a child in China is illegal and people are as scared as we have been told, why is it they walk right up to an orphanage gate with gatekeepers present and just drop their child off?"<BR/><BR/>Because the laws aren't enforced. Many children are left at the orphanage gate. But from most of the finding ads in my city....they are left at a street corner, a crowded bus or train station, or at the market place and the police are called and they bring them to the orphanage. <BR/><BR/>It's my experience that most have a special need. Also some are sick or need surgery and have gotten treatment at the hospital, the parents are out of money, so they just don't come back.<BR/><BR/>I have an eight year old right now. This is her story and she was 6 when it happen. Pam in HenanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-68774734516135887152008-05-15T07:11:00.000-07:002008-05-15T07:11:00.000-07:00Donna, You wrote~What we sensationalize with the l...Donna, <BR/>You wrote<BR/>~What we sensationalize with the label of "baby trafficking" is something much less sinister. These kids aren't being pulled from the aching arms of parents who desperately want to keep them and I seriously doubt that many Chinese women would carry a baby for 9 months, risk being discovered, labor and give birth to that child and sell it for a pittance. There are much easier things to do for 9 months that almost certainly pay better~<BR/><BR/>I wonder how sure you are that ‘these kids’ aren’t being taken against the will of their parents? Have you read anything about the issues found in Vietnam? Anyone who feels China is removed from similar issues such as Vietnam is sadly mistaken. My fear actually is that China has far worse human rights violations and child trafficking in the IA program and overall. Babies are being trafficked into China to fill the black market demand… babies that we have possibly been taking out of their population. <BR/><BR/>If you have not done so yet, please read about Vietnam and what has been found going on there. <BR/>Babies have been taken from parents. They have been tricked and coerced into giving a child up thinking it was temporary and then devastated when they find out that they were adopted abroad.<BR/>Imagine the nightmare when these parents now fight for their children’s return. The heartbreak that the adoptive families will endure and the trauma that the child will once again feel.<BR/> <BR/>If this can be prevented, then why don’t we press for that?<BR/>We can’t press to keep the China program going only to find this same situation, we need to make sure this is not the situation and if it is, it needs to stop.<BR/><BR/>And if your comeback is that Vietnam is a whole other program, a different program, I agree. I also feel it is one set up with ‘more’ safeguards than that of the China program.<BR/><BR/>Who makes sure kids are not stolen in the China program? Who’s watching each orphanage? There are no requirements for parent’s signatures, just a finder who offers his/her name and a fingerprint at the very most.<BR/>Is this finder found in the records of the orphanage over and over and if so, does anyone bother to ask why?<BR/>Or just justify that they must work in the area and find kids all the time.<BR/>No way could they be a trafficker making their living off of this program.<BR/><BR/>I am not sure how anyone could explain that most kids are found very close to the orphanage and many times right at the gate. If abandoning a child in China is illegal and people are as scared as we have been told, why is it they walk right up to an orphanage gate with gatekeepers present and just drop their child off?<BR/><BR/>As for your comment on the money being a “pittance”. Go talk to a rural family in China (majority where our kids are coming from) who make 2000 Yuan per year and ask them if 3000 Yuan is a “pittance”. You may actually find out that to them it is the equivalent to a yearly income or more.<BR/><BR/>And no I would not relinquish my child for a years income, however I have never lived in their circumstances so I have no idea what my choice would be if I were them and living their lives.<BR/><BR/>I also appreciate Brian’s information and effort he contributes. Without his information and advocacy, we would have nothing to offer balance or another side. No one else is watching this program and I would even wager that the CCAA looks at his numbers with interest. Coincidentally they are now beginning to transfer files and numbers into a central database. Could this be because they have never really had the opportunity to view their program as a whole and now that another person is, it makes them nervous when they are questioned and they fail to come up with appropriate figures?<BR/><BR/>Media, adoptive families, birth families and advocacy groups come to Brian. People rely on him because there is NO ONE ELSE out there! I am sure one day our kids will also trust in him to get information that they have never been given.<BR/><BR/>You can either be for transparency or against, if you claim that you are for an ethical transparent program, stop working so hard to disclaim what you hear. Listen, try and understand and then work towards a positive change. Even if that change is to help keep kids with their families in China, domestic adoption in China, or even long term fostering in China. All of these things should come first before a child leaves a country and a culture.<BR/><BR/>Our children deserve accurate details and not fabricated information. They deserve to know the details that the orphanage has had access to and in many cases this is the name of their birth family.<BR/><BR/>I am all for an adoption plan, even if it means money to get the child safely into the orphanage. I am against deception and in no way feel we can justify this.<BR/><BR/>Our rights as adoptive parents come behind the rights of the child and their birth family. <BR/><BR/>You draw the line at stealing babies; I draw the line at trafficking, coercing, soliciting and fraud.<BR/><BR/>CathyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-79123664415018205272008-05-15T00:09:00.000-07:002008-05-15T00:09:00.000-07:00Back in 2004, when I started looking into adopting...Back in 2004, when I started looking into adopting from China, I was shocked that so many birth families could find it in their heart to discard their unwanted baby girls. After doing a bunch of reading on that subject, I came to understand that life in the USA is privileged and our moral code can't be applied to the families in China who face obstacles we'll never have to face. Bottom line: They do what they have to do to survive.<BR/><BR/>What we sensationalize with the label of "baby trafficking" is something much less sinister. These kids aren't being pulled from the aching arms of parents who desperately want to keep them and I seriously doubt that many Chinese women would carry a baby for 9 months, risk being discovered, labor and give birth to that child and sell it for a pittance. There are much easier things to do for 9 months that almost certainly pay better.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate this discussion and the effort you've put into gathering information. But I also understand that you can't really know what "most" families with unwanted babies do with those children. If I know anything about Chinese people, it's that they're proud and private. Even if some are willing to talk to you about something so personal, you can't apply what they say to the entire population. Instead, you have to look at what is likely or reasonable for them to do in various circumstances.<BR/><BR/>If you understand human behavior, you know that oppressed people tend to avoid risk especially when the penalties for breaking rules are exceptionally severe. It's understandable that many opt to kill their baby rather than risk leaving her in a safe/public place where she can be found. If there's a way to bridge the gap between the desperate parent and the safe-haven of the SWI, I'm all for it. Given the circumstances, I really don't consider this to be morally objectionable.<BR/><BR/>We can't apply our moral code to what is happening to the children in China. It's not about the money or the broker. It's about the children and I'm still unconvinced that all or most of the children the SWI's pay for would be alive without the financial incentive the orphanages offer.<BR/><BR/>Obviously, I draw the line at stealing babies from parents but I've not seen any report that it's happening that way.<BR/><BR/>DonnaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-39213317106675891442008-05-14T20:34:00.000-07:002008-05-14T20:34:00.000-07:00There are various levels at which one could look a...There are various levels at which one could look at this issue. On a macro level, the orphanages are part of the trafficking problem because they are drawing their children from the same pool as baby-brokers (traffickers) do: families with under-desired children (I won't say "unwanted" because I feel some of these kids may be wanted, just not to the extent that one would normally think of -- they are willing to part with a child for money).<BR/><BR/>Now when one gets beneath the surface, shades begin to appear. There might be families unwilling to sell their child to a stranger, but might feel comfortable doing so to the government. It might be the case that the family is uncertain what to do until approached by the doctor and told he can arrange an adoption and pay the family. Thus, there are many subsets in the population, some of which will respond to the reward programs put in by orphanages.<BR/><BR/>The point is that the orphanages represent another voice for abandonment of children. Whether it is the gate-keeper approaching people on the street, or the employees hunting for families in their villages, or the doctors that approach families about to have babies, asking if they are "disappointed" the baby is a girl, the offering of money will draw families into giving up a child that may have not been given up at all, or that may have been "adopted" to another family.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-61509568827323768872008-05-14T20:14:00.000-07:002008-05-14T20:14:00.000-07:00So you think this problem is not part of the overa...So you think this problem is not part of the overall problem with trafficking of children in China? Why do you think that? It is really hard for us adoptive parents to know. News stories like the ABC story tend to lump the finding fees at the orphanages with the overall problem of trafficking and kidnapping children. But you seem to think this is a separate thing - families that would have not abandoned at all, or who would have simply passed their children to friends or relatives? What is your evidence? And why does the news media then tend to conflate the two issues?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-79628114844725836992008-05-14T17:18:00.000-07:002008-05-14T17:18:00.000-07:00I find it interesting that adoptive families are s...I find it interesting that adoptive families are so quick to rationalize illegal activities on the part of orphanages. Either the children would be abandoned anyway and die, or they will be sold to traffickers and put into labor camps. Thus, we comfort ourselves into believing that buying babies from BPs is OK, and should not be stopped.<BR/><BR/>The overwhelming majority of children are neither abandoned or trafficked -- rather they are transferred to family or friends who are seeking a first or second child. This "friend-to-friend" transferring is probably 95% or more of the outcome of unwanted children.<BR/><BR/>It is from this market that the reward systems offered by orphanages draw -- from families that are not interested in selling their children to traffickers (they would get more money if they did so), but are drawn by the reward to not simply give their child to a friend. Thus, I believe the reward system pulls children from the local communities and puts them in the IA program. Additionally, there is the very real probability (it has happened before) that women will view the reward as substantial enough to have a baby just to turn over to the orphanage. Thus, there is the very real possibility that orphans are being created to satisfy the IA program.<BR/><BR/>Families can continue viewing these events as "single trees in the forest," but eventually the adoption community will come to face the reality that this kind of brokering is wide-spread and ingrained in the system. <BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-30003366507174810232008-05-14T16:45:00.000-07:002008-05-14T16:45:00.000-07:00The other, and I think more likely possibility is ...The other, and I think more likely possibility is that the babies would be handed over to other types of traffickers, for good or for ill. Trafficking of children seems to be an enormous problem in China. The NY Times has reported on traffickers who take children for forced labor - some of those kids were lured away or kidnapped, but some were sold by their families. Families may prefer selling babies to the SWI, thinking they have a chance at international adoption, but without that option, what other types of brokers might they consider?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-64269823807760816212008-05-14T13:20:00.000-07:002008-05-14T13:20:00.000-07:00Donna:Your thesis is unprovable, and I have seen n...Donna:<BR/><BR/>Your thesis is unprovable, and I have seen no evidence that it would lead to the type of increases the orphanages see. But, like all complicated issues, it is possible that your ideas come into play occasionally.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-75042357510238857332008-05-14T13:11:00.000-07:002008-05-14T13:11:00.000-07:00Brian, you said: "If they would be abandoned anyw...Brian, you said: "If they would be abandoned anyway, you wouldn't see the adoption rates increase in the orphanages offering rewards."<BR/><BR/>You *would* see adoption rates increase in orphanages offering rewards because fewer children would be abandoned on the side of the road (or elsewhere) and die before ever reaching the orphanage. Fewer dead abandoned babies means more kids at the SWI. It could also be argued that fewer would be killed at birth if parents had the option to covertly hand them over to someone who would take them to the SWI. <BR/><BR/>It's not like these kids are being kidnapped and sold to orphanages. For various reasons, the birth family can't keep the child and these so-called "purchased" babies are merely being escorted to the SWI instead of being disposed of in more traditional ways.<BR/><BR/>DonnaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-83682501871318384912008-05-14T08:15:00.000-07:002008-05-14T08:15:00.000-07:00There is an excellent article in the November, 200...There is an excellent article in the November, 2007 issue of Mother Jones (and later picked up the the LA Times) by an adoptive mother and journalist Elizabeth Larsen. I met her at an ethics conference in D.C, and she is amazingly insightful, warm, and intelligent. It's a wonderful read, especially for any AP dealing with the plague of worry and moral inventory that is now accompanying adoptions from countries "under scrutiny". I've read it at least three times now, and come away with something different with each read. Here's the link:<BR/>http://motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/11/did-i-steal-my-daughter.html<BR/><BR/>Jen/ChewChew/VintageUtehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04011201364583132381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-58767369234521520312008-05-14T05:01:00.000-07:002008-05-14T05:01:00.000-07:00Anonymous:I am not implying what is happening in F...Anonymous:<BR/><BR/>I am not implying what is happening in Fuzhou. All I am saying is that abandonments were declining, apparently due to Family Planning enforcement, and in response the orphanage increased the reward offered for children. One would have to talk to individual birth parents to determine how that increased reward impacted them.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-82589587444023867912008-05-14T04:55:00.000-07:002008-05-14T04:55:00.000-07:00Donne, the world is not that black and white. If ...Donne, the world is not that black and white. If they would be abandoned anyway, you wouldn't see the adoption rates increase in the orphanages offering rewards. Obviously offering the rewards INCREASES abandonments. And it is not a simple "unwanted is unwanted". When a poor family is offered more than a year's income for anything, it presents new options that they may not have considered before. <BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-86704910561740941872008-05-14T03:20:00.000-07:002008-05-14T03:20:00.000-07:00are you implying that in fuzhou area, parents are ...are you implying that in fuzhou area, parents are having children over quota to sell to the SWI, instead of obeying the family planning policy??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-61807887437921016612008-05-13T23:54:00.000-07:002008-05-13T23:54:00.000-07:00Brian, why would you assume that the birth familie...Brian, why would you assume that the birth families would keep their babies if there wasn't a market to sell them? If they're unwanted, they're unwanted. Period.<BR/><BR/>I wonder where the kids will end up if they're unwanted and there's no friend or relative to take them in. I suppose the birth parents might abandon them and maybe a few will be lucky (not die of exposure) and eventually find their way to an orphanage and get adopted. Personally, I think the "broker" made the process much less risky to the unwanted child. As long as the babies aren't being stolen, I don't really care that a few people were paid along the way. Sure, it's not pretty but the bottom line (to me) is what is ultimately best for the child. <BR/><BR/>DonnaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-15273498775597018962008-05-13T10:12:00.000-07:002008-05-13T10:12:00.000-07:00Isn't the answer to that question obvious?In conve...Isn't the answer to that question obvious?<BR/><BR/>In conversations I have had with<BR/>residents in Fuzhou I have learned that they have been offering money<BR/>for over 5 years, and have had to increase the "reward" repeatedly to<BR/>keep the supply of children coming in. When I asked one resident why<BR/>they were increasing the amount paid, they stated that it was because the Family Planning officials had been so successful in convincing families to have only one child, that there were few unwanted children being abandoned. Thus, to keep the supply of children coming in, the orphanage has increased their payments from 200 yuan to 2,500 yuan over the past three years.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-9129447819911598162008-05-13T10:08:00.000-07:002008-05-13T10:08:00.000-07:00How did Fuzhou get to be the biggest IA SWI? Do th...How did Fuzhou get to be the biggest IA SWI? <BR/><BR/>Do they have a tough local government that really enforces the one child policy or do they bring in from a larger rural area?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-80990310556342331312008-05-13T09:32:00.000-07:002008-05-13T09:32:00.000-07:00No, actually it is ABC's. My expose would appear ...No, actually it is ABC's. My expose would appear here, on this blog.<BR/><BR/>ABC did a good job, in the space and time they were willing to commit, to showing the fundamental issues and conflicts in China, which center on the domestic and international demand exceeding the supply of available children. To increase profitability, orphanages are seeking children from families in their areas. <BR/><BR/>Fuzhou, while the largest IA orphanage in China (over 300 children every year adopted internationally) is not the only orphanage in that area, nor is Changde. But ABC's article should bring much-needed attention to the core issues.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-87828632125197773272008-05-13T09:26:00.000-07:002008-05-13T09:26:00.000-07:00Is this your Expose'on the corruption? http://abcn...Is this your Expose'on the corruption? <BR/><BR/>http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=4774224Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-69665386679061457802008-05-07T19:07:00.000-07:002008-05-07T19:07:00.000-07:00It strikes me as strange that the Chinese governme...It strikes me as strange that the Chinese government would not allow a couple to give birth to 2 children but does allow the adoption of a second child. I would think in some ways this fuels the selling of children for domestic adoption. The demand for domestic adoption may be up due to the desire for a legal way to have a second child who can be registered. The choice is one child by birth or two if one is adopted. Now when there were many children leaving the country for IA this was a way to encourage children to be adopted in China but with a decrease in children in orphanages it seems to me that it is more incentive to keep the system going no matter if it is IA or domestic adoption.Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00992025722004359389noreply@blogger.com