tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post2856099658512472286..comments2024-03-10T15:13:47.148-07:00Comments on Research-China.Org: Hunan, One Year Later III: Reactions & ReflectionsResearch-China.Orghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-45843486043721468362006-11-08T02:11:00.000-08:002006-11-08T02:11:00.000-08:00Thank you for the article and the insight. The com...Thank you for the article and the insight. The comments and your opinion give much to think about. I hope that much good comes to China through all this. I am glad there are people ready and willing to adopt.<br /><br />AlysonAlyson and Fordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09152315459410231214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-940300556369611402006-10-27T08:25:00.000-07:002006-10-27T08:25:00.000-07:00myth & reality
As always I appreciated your thoug...myth & reality<br /><br />As always I appreciated your thoughts. Re the "myth" -- I do think agencies still use it. I'm increasingly dubious that it's a true reflection of reality.<br /><br />Like you, I adopted from China in the late 90s (1997). My kid was from Nanchang where at the time they had 400 kids in their charge. I got video from a family that was there in late 96 (when we traveled, no one was allowed to see the orphanage), and it was a sobering video -- kids everywhere, stuck in potty chairs in the hallway, vacant expressions, shaved heads. The kids our group received were grossly malnourished, had a variety of ailments (respiratory, scabies, exczema, etc). None were in foster care at the time, though we later got evidence that some had spent a limited time being fostered. My 14 month old could barely sit up, certainly not crawl, and functioned at about the 7 month level. She weighed 14 pounds.<br /><br />Fast forward to summer 05, when we revisited Nanchang. Now there are only about 50 kids on site there, almost all young SN kids and older kids in the group home. the director tells me there are only about 150 kids in their charge altogether, including those in foster care. Abandonment has just dropped a lot, she said.<br /><br />I do believe the kid we adopted in 97 needed to be adopted, and that the orphanage at that time was overwhelemed with kids that would not otherwise have families. But recent developments make me very skeptical that this is still the case for many of the 'sending' orphanages. And whatever's going on to inhibit domestic adoption is just simply wrong, imo.<br /><br />I wouldn't adopt from China again unless it was an SN/waiting child proceeding. I personally think the tipping point has been reached, where 'young healthy' international adoption has become a disincentive for China to encourage domestic adoption due to the financial support flowing in. This is my opinion based on all the available evidence, which as you yourself admit, is somewhat murky. It's easy for me to say since I don't intend to adopt more kids anyway ... but at the time I WAS adopting, spouse and I DID try hard to make sure we were part of a solution, not part of a potential exploitative situation.<br /><br />I wish all the best to today's potential a-parents as they try to puzzle this out....<br /><br />Julie, chicagoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-59908430922769289472006-10-26T20:05:00.000-07:002006-10-26T20:05:00.000-07:00Question....so the demand now is high for abandone...Question....so the demand now is high for abandoned babies/children in China.....for many different reasons......all good intentions for all involved.....so maybe it is a good thing that the demand is high because the CCAA might then seek out more welfare centers to be added to the IA and domestic adoption programs so these children at least have more of a chance to be adopted, instead of staying in the orphanages. I can imagine that alot remote regions of China have orphanages where possibly those children never get adopted as the are unknown about? In a country with 1.3 billion population and their child control policies, you would think that there is still a huge need for abandoned babies to be adopted? I was given at a seminar that I went to that there are 220,000 orphaned children a year in China and that only 150,000 make it into the adoption system. Are these close to being correct figures?lakegirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07636255856568614512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-89305762225772314482006-10-26T09:14:00.000-07:002006-10-26T09:14:00.000-07:00I don't have any idea how the orphanages are chose...I don't have any idea how the orphanages are chosen, if in fact they are chosen. While interviewing the directors, many indicated that any orphanage that wishes to particopate may do so, and that those who don't wish not to. I am not clear on the subject, but will ask next time I get the chance.<br /><br />BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-29053048521180535522006-10-26T08:59:00.000-07:002006-10-26T08:59:00.000-07:00Brian,
I was wondering if you had any knowledge on...Brian,<br />I was wondering if you had any knowledge on how an SWI gets chosen to be a part of the International Adoption Arena.<br /><br />When we adopted from Hengdong, we were one of the first groups there. There was no Hengdong Yahoo group, and when I asked on APC, I received only one reponse from another family who had adopted from Hengdong. Of course now there are many more.<br /><br />But I'm curious as to how SWIs are selected to be a part of IA. Obviously being a part of IA is good for the SWI. And does this process in any way tie into the SWIs feeling like they need to "obtain" healthy infants available for adoption.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-53482219509972282742006-10-26T06:01:00.000-07:002006-10-26T06:01:00.000-07:00More likely is that Shuangpei has been made a part...More likely is that Shuangpei has been made a part of the IA program as a result of declining children all over China. Since you travelled in September, your daughter and her orphanange mates were already in the process when the Hunan story broke, and thus unaffected.<br /><br />BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-27346540882261317172006-10-25T19:45:00.000-07:002006-10-25T19:45:00.000-07:00Brian, We just got back from Hunan in the middle o...Brian, We just got back from Hunan in the middle of September (last month) adopting our 3rd time from China. The 16 children in our travel group came from southern Hunan, small orphanages. Our daughter is from Shuangpai County, and her orphanage now has 14 babies. I continually wonder as I look at our little girl, did we get this little one from this remote orphanage (we got to visit the O. and meet her nannies and see the other babies) because of the other Hunan orphanages that have been "closed?" We were told that IA has happened at this orphanage once or twice in the past 15 years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-4411649570766260622006-10-25T19:20:00.000-07:002006-10-25T19:20:00.000-07:00It will be interesting to see the next month or tw...It will be interesting to see the next month or two. If wait times keep increasing, it will become even more apparent that a supply imbalance exists. In that case, serious restrictions will need to be put in place to bring down demand.<br /><br />BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-11342085715409362092006-10-25T18:05:00.000-07:002006-10-25T18:05:00.000-07:00Brian,
Do you think that if there are more Hunan ...Brian,<br /><br />Do you think that if there are more Hunan babies that they may speed up some?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-61204950466848343722006-10-25T06:16:00.000-07:002006-10-25T06:16:00.000-07:00Yes, I expect a significant number of Hunan referr...Yes, I expect a significant number of Hunan referrals this batch. <br /><br />BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-18756060403528400432006-10-25T06:05:00.000-07:002006-10-25T06:05:00.000-07:00well, do you think in this batch will be manay chi...well, do you think in this batch will be manay children from Hunan, please let to know us ....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-1231685382595642582006-10-24T08:19:00.000-07:002006-10-24T08:19:00.000-07:00Wise choice. Good luck in your adoption!
BrianWise choice. Good luck in your adoption!<br /><br />BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-30319368313380015012006-10-24T07:55:00.000-07:002006-10-24T07:55:00.000-07:00Brian,
I chose China for many reasons, one reason...Brian,<br /><br />I chose China for many reasons, one reason is I don't like the idea of people competeing for children, as if they are a commidity. I felt like domestic adoption in the US was like that. You had to sell yourself to the birthmother, and the one with the best superficial appearance wins (again personal opinion, no offense to anyone). When I adopted my first child from china, the program was still relatively small and like you I believed of the good of the program and the need of the children. I am in the process of adopting a second daughter. Since getting back in the loop, so to speak, my views on the program have changed. I am seeing the great demand for NSN and honestly I have a problem again for competing for a child. I have since changed the age from infant to an older child. I want to give a child a home that would otherwise not have the chance.<br />Even if no one pays attention to the Hunan situation, I would think people could see that there are not alot of children available for adoption (NSN) and that China is in the process of change.<br /><br />anyway my two cents.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-69320502806212271642006-10-24T06:46:00.000-07:002006-10-24T06:46:00.000-07:00Lisa:
Good questions, but unanswerable. There ha...Lisa:<br /><br />Good questions, but unanswerable. There has never been official data on the number of children abandoned, adoptable, etc. It has all been provided by Western news sources and authors, and one is unable to verify whether those numbers are true or not. <br /><br />One could point to such things as the "Dying Rooms", but again that presentation is fraught with problems that question its validity. So, we don't know. <br /><br />I am not one to look back on decisions. Information gained today should not cause one to review decisions made yesterday or last year. My hope is that this information will be considered in future decisions. I can simply say that it is the situation now.<br /><br />BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-77235027990670941262006-10-24T05:05:00.000-07:002006-10-24T05:05:00.000-07:00Brian,
Nice work. I admire a refusal to turn awa...Brian,<br /><br />Nice work. I admire a refusal to turn away from unpleasant truth.<br /><br />I'm a little confused. Do you think the infant trafficking has always been part of the international adoption program and that the abandonment of large numbers of female children has always been a myth, or do you think that the situation of female abandonment has radically changed from 1996 to 2006. Was there ever a time that the myths of Chinese adoption were true?<br /><br />I, too, am very uncomfortable when I think that my desire for a child is actually creating the climate which encourages ongoing abandonment/relinquishment and which interferes with the establishment of potential domestic adoption program. On the other hand, isn't it China's responsibility to do what is right for its daughters?<br /><br />It's hard to know what my responsibility is as a well-meaning American. I hate that the China program now seems like a giant Wal-Mart where I can get a daughter cheaply and easily at someone else's expense. As much as it's not PC to adopt to save a child, I want the adoption to be meaningful. I want to give a home to a child who needs one. I want the adoption to represent more than my selfish desire for a child.<br /><br />I, too, am trying to go the Waiting Child route, though the competition for children on the lists is very strong.<br /><br />LisaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-42814144599798426742006-10-23T14:53:00.000-07:002006-10-23T14:53:00.000-07:00I guess for the most part we will never know where...I guess for the most part we will never know where our individual children come from in China. It is sad to think of the minority that come under shady situations but to focus on that as a waiting parent is overwhelming. It is good to have both sides of the story but for most of us we so desire to have a child that all we can do it ask questions and advocate for ourselves and hope that others are doing their job. You have to let go of the fears and let the process happen because in the end you have very little control over the path your child has taken before she is placed in your arms.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-59133376214161406892006-10-23T13:49:00.000-07:002006-10-23T13:49:00.000-07:00Brian, Thank you for all of the work that you do f...Brian, Thank you for all of the work that you do for the adoptive community. I have to say that I am very thankfull that we adopted a little girl that is cleft affected. I know in my heart that she would not have had a family if we had not stepped forward to adopt her. She is now one of the biggest blessings in our lives.I truly hope that more adoptive parents will be willing to adopt SN kids. ChristyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-52446436700310030822006-10-23T09:53:00.000-07:002006-10-23T09:53:00.000-07:00I always tell friends that the IA process in China...I always tell friends that the IA process in China is not all warm and fuzzy and in some ways we felt a little dirty in the process, particularly once we got in country. <br /><br />However, our daughter’s birth family was not the only ones who abandoned her. Her community and country abandoned her as well. I cannot change this fact. I will also not allow any revisionist view of our desire in adopting a child in need of a loving home for being anything but what is was. <br /><br />If I.A. promotes the dark side of abandonment, then the CCAC under pressure from the US and other countries should implement strict abandonment guild-lines for IA adoptions and eliminate third party payments by the local SWI of any type which rewards “middlemen” even if the actions / intentions are good (which I believe is probably the norm). Full disclosure would do wonders to clean up our own political system and the same might work for China.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-63806356423909403462006-10-23T09:23:00.000-07:002006-10-23T09:23:00.000-07:00Of course what we are discussing about China is ma...Of course what we are discussing about China is made in relation to China, not other countries. As I stated, I believe that China's program is better than many other programs.<br /><br />The problem with China is that we have all been taught (and continue to be told) that the China program is founded on the premise that these children will not be adopted in-country. I believe the evidence, both statistical and anecdotal, shows this to be a false premise. Anytime you have orphanage directors telling you that there is a 3 year wait for families inside China to adopt, you have to ask why.<br /><br />Certainly there are many other countries that have bigger ethical issues than China. It is for that reason that many people have come to the conclusion that international adoption should be abolished altogether.<br /><br />BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-42557194018949138742006-10-23T09:08:00.000-07:002006-10-23T09:08:00.000-07:00It is good to shine light and ask questions. I thi...It is good to shine light and ask questions. I think it's great that you are advocating on behalf of Chinese families. However, I think you may have lost some perspective on international adoption.<br /><br />While I've never been to China, based on the picture you've presented, China is a far cry from baby brokerage. Go to Guatemala, a favorite for international adoptions because of its short wait and the age of most babies available for adoption (as young as 3-6 months). There is no central governmental agency as such that facilitates or oversees adoptions; it is all private attorneys. They pay fees to "babyfinders" who locate babies and pregnant mothers. Mothers are paid little of the enormous fees collected by the attorneys. NONE of the money collected goes to help orphans left behind.<br /><br />Secondly, you state that "with adequate income, China can be a good place to live." My question: how many have an "adequate income"? And of those, how many want to adopt? Given China's demographics (what is known of them, anyway), the number of orphans, special needs or not, still is greater than the number of Chinese couples who can adopt and want to adopt. In short, while you've given me food for thought, the information and data you present have not convinced me - yet- that there are legions of Chinese parents out there who wish to adopt and can't, because all the babies have been taken by foreigners.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-28174211468918137112006-10-22T21:05:00.000-07:002006-10-22T21:05:00.000-07:00That is the most excellent of questions.
The trut...That is the most excellent of questions.<br /><br />The truth is, with my limited brain I am unable to clearly see where these children would grow up happiest. I look at my own daughters. My oldest was adopted as the healthiest and most attractive of Chinese babies, and would definitely be desirable by any family. My middle child was older, and possessed physical attributes that made her more difficult to adopt domestically. And my youngest almost certainly would never have been adopted domestically. <br /><br />The world body, however, has stated that all children should first be given the opportunity to be adopted inside their own country. China has ratified that agreement, and therefore has promised to subscribe to its principles. <br /><br />As I travel in China I see the strong sense of community, the rich culture and history, and the strong sense of family. If one is of adequate financial means, it can be a very good place to live.<br /><br />If I had to do it again, I would not seek to adopt a healthy infant. There are so many children that truly need homes, and that unless adopted internationally will never find homes. Those with six fingers, cleft lips, minor correctable issues for example. If I did it again, I would seek one of those children, because they don't possess the ethical concerns that healthy infants do. <br /><br />As far as China itself is concerned, I think that overall it is still the best program on the planet. But the conflict between domestic and international adoption poses significant ethical (not legal) iussues for me.<br /><br />BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-24107423688456335232006-10-22T20:38:00.000-07:002006-10-22T20:38:00.000-07:00Brian, Thank you for sharing these articles with u...Brian, Thank you for sharing these articles with us. But what do you suggest is now the proper course of action? Should we discourage others from pursuing international adoption? Should we encourage them to consider other countries? Should we be paralyzed by our confusion and disillisionment? Would you have adopted your children knowing what you know today?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com