tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post2556932449659597029..comments2024-03-10T15:13:47.148-07:00Comments on Research-China.Org: What Are the Problems in China?Research-China.Orghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-11013107953608856832009-02-18T20:59:00.000-08:002009-02-18T20:59:00.000-08:00I have a lot of thoughts on this issue, but I will...I have a lot of thoughts on this issue, but I will refrain from saying most of them, because you don't really care what anyone says unless they agree with you. (And I do think you are right on many points, by the way.) Anyway, what I will say is this. You said that you cannot advocate for IA anymore, and I am assuming you mean anywhere. That is such a tragedy, when there truly are thousands of orphans in this world who live out meager existences in orphanages, and then go out into the world with no one to care about them. It sounds like in China there are plenty of parents willing and able to adopt children. But this is not the case everywhere around the world. Africa, for example, is full of orphans who truly need parents. I am aware that this world is not perfect, and corruption happens. The Bible correctly states that the love of money is the root of all evil, and yes, it is terrible that people have to ruin beautiful things because of greed. But if international adoption is universally shut down, that would be the tragedy of all tragedies. In fact, I think many more countries should open their doors to it. Plenty of internationally adopted people would agree with me. Sometimes I wonder about you.Hollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12560337640607116604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-63286445748014425752008-12-15T12:55:00.000-08:002008-12-15T12:55:00.000-08:00Anonymous:Your question is very, very important. ...Anonymous:<BR/><BR/>Your question is very, very important. To be honest, when I began adopting I was a strong advocate for international adoption, but 8 years later I no longer am. By and large, I see that the money that feeds EVERY adoption program is inherently corruptive. The problem is that I can find no way to certify and protect a program. Even China's shift to the Special Needs program is now allowing orphanages to fabricate problems to allow them to continue to place children. Corruption is like water, it will find a place to go no matter how hard we try.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-71847873736856097192008-12-15T12:45:00.000-08:002008-12-15T12:45:00.000-08:00I ask this as a serious question: is there current...I ask this as a serious question: is there currently a means of adoption that is not coercive at some level? US domestic adoption seems to involve 2 basic paths: either foster-to-adopt a child who has been removed from his/her birth family, often against the birth parent's wishes, by the government; or pay exorbitant fees, i.e. financial coercion, for a domestic infant adoption. Within the US there is also resentment among some communities that privileged white people are taking minority children out of their communities by adopting them. Surrogacy is also fraught with potential coercion, as anyone who read the NYT magazine a couple of weeks ago can see.<BR/><BR/>Brian, you have made us quite aware of the problems with China, and some posters have shown that we can't completely assume that this is limited to NSN. We all know about problems in Guatemala and Vietnam. Seriously, what is a PAP to do?<BR/><BR/>I always correct people who suggest that I'm some kind of a saint because we adopted a child. For me, it was never about rescuing a child, it was about becoming a parent. We would like to bring another child into our family as a sibling to our daughter (China, 2005) and have basically given up on China NSN. But I am really completely at a loss now as to how to proceed ethically.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-7693714727984810742008-12-12T11:40:00.000-08:002008-12-12T11:40:00.000-08:00Suzanne:What papers? Adoption paperwork?BrianSuzanne:<BR/><BR/>What papers? Adoption paperwork?<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-68725432644795408212008-12-12T09:53:00.000-08:002008-12-12T09:53:00.000-08:00Hi Brian, thanks for this report.Question: but how...Hi Brian, thanks for this report.<BR/><BR/>Question: but how do they get the papers??<BR/><BR/>Regards, SusanneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-9141180493483170692008-11-27T09:41:00.000-08:002008-11-27T09:41:00.000-08:00find a error in your thoughts.You have stated that...find a error in your thoughts.You have stated that for along time that domestic adopters in China are overlooked by international adopters .Yet I believe a country like China that is now an economic powerhouse and will soon over take the US in wealth would feel ashamed to keep allowing children to be adopted by what they consider "foreigners".In fact I have a Chinese student living with us that has stated that her Govt would not want international adoption.Thus thats why I believe they have reduced the programme as they want to "save face" in all ways.I believe they do want more adoption internally and this is infact happening under Hague.Yes there is corruption and wrong doings and people making a quick buck...doesn't that happen in the US aswell!!!(not that it makes it right and yes any corruption should be stamped out) Yet I believe the Chinese are a proud people and want to do their best for their children.<BR/>The IA programme will close in a few years and it is now trickled , they know that many will pull out naturally and thus its a very clever move.<BR/>They don't want to upset the apple cart,so by taking a steady course and reducing numbers ,IA will come to an end naturally .Rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16696062699319984917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-12061592218551815872008-11-26T06:03:00.000-08:002008-11-26T06:03:00.000-08:00my comment no harm no foul is not a slight on anyo...my comment no harm no foul is not a slight on anyone nor ment to be. <BR/><BR/>I said that while there are problems, the program is obviously going to close down in the near future. At the end of the day it will be over an no one is going to be accountable for any of the issues Brian has brought up. <BR/><BR/>That is the no harm no foul - it just goes away unless you want it to remain an issue... one that you have absolutly no abilty to change or make it better. <BR/><BR/>As Brian has said in the past, the vast majority of children trafficked (which is the core of his discussions)are done so willing by the birth parents helped along with western dollars -<BR/><BR/>The stoires of kidnapping / abduction / organ / transplants / sex trade while these problems exist and are blown out ofproportion. These actions are caused by greed and behavor by chinese citizens on their fellow people and these actions are not caused by adoptive family's.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-14537124236445449832008-11-23T15:02:00.000-08:002008-11-23T15:02:00.000-08:00"No Harm - No Foul" for all of those who got what ..."No Harm - No Foul" for all of those who got what they wanted!!! <BR/><BR/>The thousands of families in China who wonder whether their children are child laborers, in the sex trade, organ harvesting or sold for illegal adoptions- they have experienced harm. <BR/><BR/>The children who lost their natural parents and their true identity, their birth country and roots- they too have experienced a great deal of harm.<BR/><BR/>"No Harm - No Foul" is a callous comment on such a serious situation. You must be one who got what you wanted out of this program! These self-serving attitudes are nauseating to say the least.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-77176664714447372792008-11-21T06:05:00.000-08:002008-11-21T06:05:00.000-08:00With the recent publication of the state departmen...With the recent publication of the state department numbers from last year it appears that the system will take care of it's self. <BR/><BR/>At the end of the day (in the not to distant future) China's IA program will be a thing of the past, and all this will be forever brushed away....No Harm - No Foul.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-87619612990609210262008-11-13T11:53:00.000-08:002008-11-13T11:53:00.000-08:00I agree that the IA program is not the root or cau...I agree that the IA program is not the root or cause -- but it continues and propagates the problem. Confiscations, baby-buying, and kidnapping would all be reduced (but not eliminated) if the demand from the IA program was removed.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-27899167335471049832008-11-13T11:49:00.000-08:002008-11-13T11:49:00.000-08:00Seems to me that a SWI being in IA as a double edg...Seems to me that a SWI being in IA as a double edge sword. While you have rightly expressed concern with IA and finders fees, a SWI in IA can get an $ 3,000.00 (Now 5000.00) documentable donation fee that is shared with regional powers. But you also have to provide a certain level of care and are under high scrutany.<BR/><BR/>Or you stay under the radar and do what ever you want and avoid the scrutany. I suspect that most of the children get better care in IA SWI's than non IA ones. <BR/><BR/>In the end it is obvious that these children are nothing more than opprotunity and potential dollars to SWI's be they IA or domestic. <BR/><BR/>I agree that the system is bad but IA is not he cause or root of all that is wrong - it is greed and lack of morality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-34011464060968380802008-11-12T17:37:00.000-08:002008-11-12T17:37:00.000-08:00It is possible that some directors are actually tr...It is possible that some directors are actually trying to comply with Hague and trying to find domestic homes for their children before submitting them for international adoption. I am speaking to the idea that some directors hold children back with the intent that they will NEVER be submitted for international adoption (to keep a program going, etc.). Some people explain the increasing wait on this idea, that there are plenty of kids, but most are not being submitted for IA. Thus, somewhere in this mythical world there are orphanages backlogged with abundant children.<BR/><BR/>Speaking to specific orphanages the pattern you recount is indeed interesting. It would be interesting to explore why this might be happening -- when are the finding ads from this orphanage placed (is the delay at the orphanage level or the CCAA level). Is the delay consistent from one batch to another, or infrequent. There are many possibilities, both ethical and unethical, but further investigation would need to be done to decide the primary causes.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-7665503447108175642008-11-12T17:08:00.000-08:002008-11-12T17:08:00.000-08:00Brian,Even if you don't believe that SWI Directors...Brian,<BR/><BR/>Even if you don't believe that SWI Directors are purposefully holding children back from becoming paper-ready, do you think that perhaps some SWI's are simply in no big hurry to send children's files to the CCAA? I ask because I find it interesting that in my agency's referral batches, every couple of months there's a group of children all referred from the same SWI who are all around the same age (between 15-24 months) yet found at birth. In the same referral batch, our agency will receive a group of referrals from a different SWI (sometimes in the same province, sometimes not) and the children are all very young (6-12 months). This leads me to believe that some SWI's are very proactive in sending children's files in for IA, and others are not. Could they be waiting for the children to be adopted domestically? I would find it hard to believe that several slightly older babies referred from the same SWI in the same referral batch to the same agency would all have been prior referrals/disruptions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-38462129022864819522008-11-12T06:21:00.000-08:002008-11-12T06:21:00.000-08:00There are many possible reasons, but one that I ca...There are many possible reasons, but one that I came across in Holland was similar to your story. <BR/><BR/>A woman approached me with exactly the same questions as yours -- she had adopted a healthy 3-year old and wondered why she had been delayed. I told her a possibility was that perhaps she had been referred before, but for one reason or another that adoption had been disrupted. <BR/><BR/>After she walked away, a man that had overheard my conversation approached and told me that what I had told her was in fact true, and that the first family was actually in Holland also. There had been no contact between the two families, so the "second" family had no idea what had happened.<BR/><BR/>Some clues can be found by determining when the finding ad was placed. If it was placed normally (within 3 months of finding) a disrupted adoption might be the explanation. If it was published later (over 1 year after finding) it might be that she was adopted domestically and then disrupted, or illness may have played a factor.<BR/><BR/>One explanation for which there is no evidence is the idea that directors are holding kids back and not making them "paper ready" until they are older. Having researched scores of "late" adoptions, I have never found this to be the case. <BR/><BR/>If you would like more specific information about your daughter, contact me privately.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-19696550225449638032008-11-12T05:47:00.000-08:002008-11-12T05:47:00.000-08:00Brianin your blog you list a number of signs to lo...Brian<BR/><BR/>in your blog you list a number of signs to look out for in the patterns of adoptions from SWI's. You do not however address the age of children - or did I miss that? How does the systematic and widespread practices you outline mesh with the issue of older children who for whatever reason (I need help with this!) are not adopted at the 'optimum' ages that so many parents seem to prefer? Our daughter was nearly three when she came to us, and yet was found at birth. Your thoughts would be appreciated. I am not looking for an 'out', but simply trying to understand why a lovely little girl might spend so much time in an orphanage. Why would she not be adopted locally if demand for healthy young babies is so high? We have photos of her at a much younger age, so we know she was there. <BR/><BR/>thank you!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-327259831174148022008-11-11T17:43:00.000-08:002008-11-11T17:43:00.000-08:00Most researchers mark the beginning of China's int...Most researchers mark the beginning of China's international adoption program in April 1992, when China implemented is new adoption law, which had been passed in December 1991. However, adoption of Chinese children by foreigners started much earlier. Amy Klatzkin, in the forward to Kay Johnson's "Wanting a Daughter, Needing a Son," shows that orphan visas were issued by the U.S. for 12 children in 1988, a number that climbed to 61 in 1991, as you pointed out. These adoptions were not officially performed by the central government. The beginning of State-sponsored adoptions began in April 1992, being processed through the China Adoption Center (later the CCAA) in Beijing.<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-79125449293833906842008-11-11T17:11:00.000-08:002008-11-11T17:11:00.000-08:00I thought the IA program began in China in 1991 wi...I thought the IA program began in China in 1991 with 61 children?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-35352101637769633422008-11-11T07:13:00.000-08:002008-11-11T07:13:00.000-08:00wew....thanks a lot..wew....thanks a lot..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-74795634532704953502008-11-07T13:44:00.000-08:002008-11-07T13:44:00.000-08:00Hard chioce. Leave children with parents who woul...Hard chioce. Leave children with parents who would sell them for a bit of money or have them adopted by foreigners. I dont think parents who really want to keep a child can be forced to sell them to traffickers. I think if the option is there the parents who dont care either way will sell them. Do you think that the numbers of children in the orphanges, not to be adopted by the Chinese would plummet if we get rid of the overseas adoption program? Would they adopt the special needs kids too? I thought the bloodline snobbery was alive and well in China. Has that changed too and now lots of parents wants to adopt an abandoned child of the poor? Every Chinese born person I know cannot understand how I could raise a child born of someone else. One even said, "But she is not yours. Who were her parents?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-11271513719320927382008-10-28T05:43:00.000-07:002008-10-28T05:43:00.000-07:00I have considered publishing a list of the suspect...I have considered publishing a list of the suspect orphanages, but have not done so for one simple reason: The CCAA will simply fix those particular orphanages and leave the problem intact. <BR/><BR/>What is needed if a large-scale investigation. I don't believe revealing a list of orphanages would solve the problems because the CCAA is interested only in putting out the hot-spots, not in putting out the main forest fire.<BR/><BR/>But families are getting smart at looking for the signs. One recent adoptive family asked their guide in China if my assertions were true, and this guide confirmed that the incentive practice was wide-spread and common. Eventually this will all come out, it is just a matter of time.<BR/><BR/>You are welcome to e-mail me privately for information on a specific orphanage if you like.<BR/><BR/>All the best!<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-22608132282678739342008-10-28T04:59:00.000-07:002008-10-28T04:59:00.000-07:00OK, Brian, you published my question but didn't an...OK, Brian, you published my question but didn't answer it. Will you publish your analysis of finding ads and clue us all in on which orphanages have suspicious patterns of the types you have mentioned in the article?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-18719621105676928722008-10-28T03:37:00.000-07:002008-10-28T03:37:00.000-07:00Thanks Brian - I had not heard of that law change ...Thanks Brian - I had not heard of that law change allowing a broader spectrum of domestic families to adopt. This makes sense and gives me solace as a child we saw at the orphanage was reported to us as having been domestically adopted - this was a while back and the first we'd heard of domestic adoption - she was a waif, then she went to foster care and became a beautiful animated child - anyone would have wanted to adopt her. We only hope she is happy in her new life.bytheriverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14086511271884000240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-64147704024738478262008-10-27T22:43:00.000-07:002008-10-27T22:43:00.000-07:00I think that the problems within China's adoption ...I think that the problems within China's adoption program, and the doubts that they conjure up in PAPS, are indicative of the issues inherent in all adoption. Even if I had a guarantee that our daughter was not trafficked, and came into care by being abandoned without anyone profiting from it, is that supposed to make me feel better? Should I feel reassured if her birthparents made the choice to leave her without any monetary gain? Should a family adopting a child from a country where poverty is the main reason for relinquishment or abandonment feel better? How about a family adopting domestically because the birth mother was unwed, raped or simply did not have the resources at the time of the child's birth to parent?<BR/><BR/>Anonymous wrote, "People seem to be looking for a way to adopt and still feel great about their decisions.<BR/><BR/>Even if everyone requests a child with special needs or an older child, without proper regulations, there are no guarantees.<BR/><BR/>There is no clean system right now with China. Until the millions of dollars are removed and until ethics become more important than profits, corruption will remain.<BR/><BR/>For those who are waiting and are now questioning their decision to adopt, this feeling will not disappear and nor can it be eased once your child is home. It only gets stronger when you fully understand this program.<BR/><BR/>If you have concerns now, trust your instincts and do what you can to push for ethical changes.<BR/><BR/>The supply follows the demand. <BR/>Brian can't say whether an older child or a child with SN's has not been trafficked. <BR/><BR/>The program needs better regulations and ethics and until then, all children are equally at risk for corruption- laundering, trafficking, neglect etc."<BR/><BR/>Is there any "clean" adoption program? All adoptions are rooted in someone else's loss, whether the birthparent's or the child's.<BR/><BR/>For the past 19 months since we adopted our daughter, I have read this blog, and others, with growing alarm and unease. At the beginning of our process it seemed so simple: we wanted more children and there were children who needed homes. Now I feel that there are NO easy answers, no matter what situation we might have adopted from. In no way am I attempting to say that the Hague violations occuring within the China adoption system are not worthy of note because there are problems in other programs. I am saying that, for us, no matter what system or country we adopted from, I would feel bittersweet about the idea of adoption in general. Yes, I feel that adoption is in the best interest of children in many cases. But that only comes after great loses: to the child, birth parents and sometimes the adoptive parents as well. We cherish our Chinese-born daughter and cannot imagine our family without her. But I will forever be haunted by the unknowns, and question whether the wool had been pulled over our eyes four years ago at the start of our process.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-2857232681051650012008-10-27T22:37:00.000-07:002008-10-27T22:37:00.000-07:00If a woman in China choses to have a child for the...If a woman in China choses to have a child for the sake of placing him or her in an orphanage and collecting the fee, how is that ANY DIFFERENT than the surrogacy program that is alive and legal in the United States? I am not talking about the illegal trafficking and kidnapping of children. I am speaking mainly of a woman who does this due to economic need. We sit here and act so intellectually superior. As if these "poor dumb farm women" don't know what they are doing or are making the choice out of ignorance. If you need money and you have the ability, as gross as it sounds, to provide the "commodity" of a baby, is it wrong? I don't know; I am not raising the question. I am simply pointing out that babies in exchange for money happens right here in the United States, it's legal and "everyone" stands around and says, "oh isn't that so wonderful a surogate would do that for a couple who can not have a baby on their own." Additionally, what is the entire business of fertility based on: MONEY!!! It is VERY SIMPLE - if you have the MONEY, the doctors will "make" a baby for you or at least go to all lengths to try to make that happen. Again, where anyone stands in terms of "assisted reproduction" is up to them and never, never, never would I suggest the kidnapping of children is is anyway justifiable. But to say women are "just" having babies in China for the money and hence, don't "deserve" to be parents anyway, to me, is taking a very gradndiose and morally superior stand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15636692.post-31196270187758603102008-10-27T17:01:00.000-07:002008-10-27T17:01:00.000-07:00I can say this with complete and total conviction:...I can say this with complete and total conviction:<BR/><BR/>1) Most orphanages are offering money for people to bring them kids. These children would remain in China (either with their birth families or other adoptive families) were it not for the incentives.<BR/><BR/>2) Collectively, the orphanages have more families waiting to adopt inside China than they have children. Thus, I am confident that healthy children can easily be adopted domestically.<BR/><BR/>The above beliefs dictate that should the CCAA prohibit the payment of rewards for children and tell orphanages to adopt domestically before internationally, the program would end tomorrow.<BR/><BR/>That said, I don't know how to answer your "morally" question. China is doing many things illegally (against Hague), but I'm not sure how one can measure if it is "morally reprehensible". <BR/><BR/>Each family must decide that on their own.<BR/><BR/>Good luck!<BR/><BR/>BrianResearch-China.Orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09137919637778021754noreply@blogger.com